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Thoughts on Cata Raid changes from an “Entitled Elitist”

God damn Casuals, ruining the game once again.


I bet that’s what you were expecting to read when you came here. Your blood is already pumping, preparing to blast us for for subscribing to the “only 25 man raiders should get exclusive loot” school, and and tell us to tuck our pathetic virtual e-peens away and quit the game.

Man, are you going to be disappointed when you read this. So take a deep breath and let me explain what us “elitist pricks” have to say about all this.

When the raid changes for Cataclysm were announced today, I saw twitter go apeshit. I saw people in all walks of guilds from the most casual to the spreadsheet fanatics go at each others’ throats. Casual scrub this, Entitled elitist was kinda disgusting. I tried to voice my opinion, but expressing your thoughts in 140 characters when people are chomping at the bit for a fight was a lesson in futility.

First off, let me start off by saying I am REALLY tired of the elitist label and how raiders are accused of having some false sense of entitlement. That’s as much nonsense as the unemployed basement dwelling virgin stereotype, and it’s just as silly as saying casual players or ten man guilds are all bad and lazy. Are there exceptions to all those? Sure. But they’re simply exceptions – not the norm.  When these changes occur, I watch in fascination – it instantly becomes a casual (aka scrub) vs an elitist (aka no life loser) debate. But have you ever looked closely at the people making these accusations? The self proclaimed elitists? They’re usually just better geared morons that haven’t managed to do anything noteworthy. They’re the ones insisting to see your gearscore, insulting you when it doesn’t hold up to theirs. They’re the ones that measure their worth in pixels. And THEY’RE the ones that don’t want you to have what they have.

It’s very rare when 10/25 man progression raiders act like that. You don’t see them asking for your gearscore. They certainly wouldn’t write those handy boss & class guides, or Fraps & Ustream fights for everyone to view if they felt this way. They certainly wouldn’t take time to help you with your questions and run sites like EJ or Tankspot or PlusHeal. If you look, you’ll be very hard pressed to find any raider that said people should not have access to raids nor gear. The complaint you’ll hear about this change from raiders, 10 and 25 man alike, is the fear that challenging fights will be going the way of the dodo.

If you remember a few weeks ago, I wrote a post about the Cata priest changes. If you recall, I summed it up as “we have no idea how this will work, so don’t worry your pretty little head about it”. It applies here as well. Let’s take a little trip down the tubes of time, shall we?


Vanilla, the raid size reduction is announced. Death and Taxed proclaim raiding is dead, and thus the game.

Burning Crusade, the changes to buffs and spell/healing power are announced. We were advised to say goodbye to our friends, raiding was finished.

Then we had the 10 & 25 man raid announcements. Contrary to popular belief, Raiding went on, & Hell is still pretty fucking hot.

See a trend? Maybe – just MAYBE – this change won’t be the end of raiding. You want to know what this Elitist prick thinks? I think this change could rock. Yes, you heard me right. Do I have concerns? Yup. But’s look at the possible positives:

1) No need to run both 10 & 25 for gear. I am sick of being a 25 man raider, and having to raid 10 mans on my offnights. I signed up to raid 4 nights a week, and having to raid 5-6 because , for some bizarre reason, some gear I need comes out of tens. With the gear being the same, I no longer have to do that. And ten man guilds don’t have to put up with atrocious PuGs to get 25 man loots. Yes, many guilds will adopt multiple “mains” like they do now to get around limited attempts, but so what? That’s how they enjoy the game, so what’s it those of us that don’t want to do that?

2) Less Burnout Due to Shared Lockouts. This kind of ties in to point #1 – having to raid in both ten & 25 man raids, being visually the same damn thing, is both boring and time consuming. I’ll be more enthusiastic about raiding again because I won’t have to give up almost all my free time to do it. I do see a downside however- it will eliminate a person from running one with their guild, and then a separate size with friends. But having an alt or 4 is pretty much the norm now, so maybe that won’t be a big deal.

3) Difficulty changes may go UP: This is the main concern of raiders I see misinterpreted.  Many, myself included, are afraid the difficulty of raids will be scaled down to follow the current “Everyone Gets a Trophy” mantra. But when I started thinking about it, I came to a different conclusion: We all might get challenged again! Think about it:. Currently, regular ten & 25 mans are lacking challenge – they are nothing a group of competent people find difficult. Right now, most of the difficulty comes from the poor people that have to drag mouth breathers along. What if hand holding wasn’t possible? What if the raids are tuned UP, forcing people to understand their gear, their specs and choices? It certainly makes sense, doesn’t it? Gear stats are being simplified, buffs are obtainable by multiple classes – it certainly would play into the “Bring the player, not the class” theory that Blizzard has been pushing. Yes, the 0/0/71 Death knight, the Resto Shaman gemmed for Spirit, & the hunter in spell power gear will be shit out of luck, but why is that a bad thing? Isn’t that what we’ve been asking for? Reward for effort and ability?

4) Shorter raids. I have mixed feelings on this. I actually enjoy a long epic raid. I loved Ulduar & ICC. They were broken up in wings so you could divide your time and they have an immersion you can’t get from short raids like Eye of Eternity or ToTC. Depending on the challenge level, many guilds could be out of things to do once they’re on farm. I don’t think you should have to resort to alts to keep yourself amused. Without knowing more, there’s not much I can say. It certainly makes things easier on guilds that only raid 3 hours or so a night, so that’s good. Maybe I’ll actually get my fat ass to the gym…..nah.

Jesus Says "These changes could kick ASS!"

I do have some concerns, of course: How the HELL do you tune 10 and 25 mans to have the same difficulty? I’m not getting into 25 s are more difficult than 10s here, so let’s not turn it into that. My point is I can’t even imagine how to tune it so both maintain the SAME difficulty to justify the same gear. Is it possible? If it is, this will be an amazing change. I just hope they can pull it off.

So why raid 25s if the gear is equal? Believe it or not, some people DO enjoy raiding with the people in their 25 man guilds. I see so many people say they won’t join 25 man guilds because they don’t want to put up with 24 other idiots just for loot, and it makes me sad. In these times of 3 day server transfers, and faction changes, there is NO excuse not to find a guild you enjoy. That also goes for 25 man players who want to raid ten mans – now there is no reason not to find a guild you’re comfortable with. I think, coupled with the upcoming guild “achievements”, might actually once again put an emphasis on guild camaraderie & loyalty, since there’s no need to settle for a guild you don’t like to get gear. When you enjoy the people you play with, you realize why so many raiders actually do it.

25 man guilds are not better than 10 man guilds, and 10 man guilds are not better than 25 – I’ve seen the elitism from both. Both, for the most part, are looking for a challenge because that’s what we find fun. We raid for a challenge and tackling those challenges with people we enjoy spending our free time with. If these changes play out the way I’m hoping, both guild sizes will get what they’ve always wanted – a challenge and rewards that match it. Maybe then we’ll see the end of these False Entitlement Casuals vs Selfish Elitist arguments & shit slinging that goes along with it, & Billy Baddie will have to learn to play and stop asking “WUTS UR GS?”

We all want the same thing, guys. Let’s just all try to listen, keep an open mind, & see how this plays out.

(PS we’re recruiting – look at the column on the right and come help us kill Heroic LK25)

Written By: on April 26, 2010
  1. I’m screwed because I have commitment issues and refuse to join any long-term guilds on my main. Change is bad and choices make me nervous. I can feel my days of a 2man guild and being an amazing PuG coming to an end. There’s a light at the end of it, but I’m scared.

    I’ll tag along with Emmet wherever he goes and flail around indecisively whenever a guild tries to adopt me.

    That said, I agree that these changes could be good. There will certainly be opportunities and incentives to find a guild that you enjoy and stick with them. I’m also happy that GS will die. It’ll probably kick futilely, but the shared loot table should make it inconsequential.

  2. I agree with most u say in this post. But in my mind its really impossible too have 10 and 25 men raiding be the same difficulty. Even if the pve aspect is really just as difficult, the fact u only need 10 people too pull it off, u will have less “badish players” and therefore its less difficult. Ofcourse this point is made from a 25 men point of vieuw.

  3. Hmm, I’m still in shock to be honest. I can’t quite understand all of this.

    I so far haven’t seen anyone completely understand the problem. I’m not really sure how to explain because it’s mostly the psychology behind the reward system in the game. I’m extremely concerned that it will be really hurt by these new changes.
    We can talk about death of 25 man raids, and death of pugs, and all that crap all day. I think your post here pretty much sums all the arguments being had. Although I have seen nothing substantial about the loot so far.
    I understand most ‘progressive’ raiders are under the DELUSION that they don’t care about loot. Loot is one of the fundamental reasons we raid. This is for many reasons that I just wont go into, because I don’t want to make an epic post right here.
    The fact is, making loot the same in 10 and 25 mans is a problem of reward. The actual amount of pixels (read: amount of loot) wont actually solve the problem, as Blizzard seems to think. It is much more about the ‘feeling of progression’ that a large portion of raiders are after.
    A huge part of that feeling of progression is to see your gear get better. Your gear gets better and then you can go on to bigger, harder bosses.
    The way I understand this change, these walls of progression will be knocked down.
    A player can level to 85. On the day he dings, attend a 10 man raid, gear up a few weeks in there, and then jump right into 25 man heroic version without doing any 25 man normal content. That being just an example.
    You could say, what’s the problem? 10 and 25 will be the same difficulty. Well, I think you went into that enough in your post.
    The main issue I want people to be aware of is the sense of progression and the sense of reward. Most people seem to be ignoring it. And I can understand that, because it’s more of a psychological than a simple observable problem. I prefer ‘progressive’ raiders, than ‘hardcore’, and I really thing that community; Elitest Jerks, PlusHeal, Tankspot and all the others will slowly disappear if these changes come-about.
    I’m going to leave it there. But you heard it here first, in a coherent manner. Not the death of raiding, but highly damaging.
    I hope another developer is smart enough to call Blizzards bluff and release a true progressive raiding MMO.

    1. This is something that has changed a lot since the days of Vanilla. In those days raiding was all about the gear. Only the best of the best got the best gear and got to see all the content the game had to offer.

      Today is a different day. WotLK has changed things a lot. It’s not about the gear anymore. It’s about the experience. It’s about the achievements. It’s about the uber titles and mounts that you get to show off flying over that one spot near the violet citadel that doesn’t dismount you.

      What shows off how good you are (your guild is) different than they used to be. If you were just raiding for the loot then I don’t know what to say. I raid for the moment. That moment where you’ve been trying on a boss. Maybe even too many times. Then you finally watch in anticipation as it drops below 10%.. then 5% and you just count away.. 4.9%.. 4.8% every second waiting in anticipation. 1%.. 0.5%.. 0.2% ! (!!!!!!!) 0%! The accomplishments of doing it, and especially doing it with friends. Is where it all is in raiding.

    2. “I understand most ‘progressive’ raiders are under the DELUSION that they don’t care about loot. Loot is one of the fundamental reasons we raid.”

      Statements like this never cease to irritate me…….

      It is not that we don’t CARE about loot, but it IS NOT one of the fundamental reasons to raid.

      1. I raid to see new stuff and be challenged
      2. I get rewarded for “winning”
      3. The rewards make me able to tackle new content
      4. Back to point 1

      I don’t raid for the loot – I raid for the challenge. I f I could raid without ever getting an upgrade to gear, but I needed to kill something to open up other encounters I’d do that (it’s just another way to gate content).

    3. “The way I understand this change, these walls of progression will be knocked down.
      A player can level to 85. On the day he dings, attend a 10 man raid, gear up a few weeks in there, and then jump right into 25 man heroic version without doing any 25 man normal content.”

      I don’t understand why this would be an issue given the changes. Right now, 10m and 25m are essentially two different instances with very different levels of difficulty and very different levels of reward.

      In Cataclysm, whether you take 9 people or 24 people in with you will be largely a matter of preference. Blizzard says 25m will reward more loot per player (which means, by the way, that if 10m continues to drop 2 pieces of loot per boss, 25m bosses are going to have to drop at least 6 per, which is auesome).

      So the 25m version will have the same “difficulty” in relation to sheer numbers, but the added difficulty of finding an organizing and training 15 additional competent players. And the reward for the extra organizational difficulty is that, on the whole, everyone will gear up faster.

      So why would it be an issue if I gear up in 10m and then get invited to a 25m heroic run one week? It’s essentially the same dungeon. I’m going to be facing the same bosses, w/ the same mechanics and the same difficulty, and because I’m playing with 15 more people, I’ll actually have a higher chance of getting loot for my trouble.

      The key is to stop thinking of progression as 10man T11 –> 25man T11.5 –> 10m T12 –> 10m Heroic T12.25 –> 25m T12.5 –> 25m H T12.75… 10m and 25m will be the same tier. So it’ll be Tier 11 –> T11 heroic –> T12 –> T12 Heroic.

      The mode (10m or 25m) you choose in a given week will be a function of preference and availibility rather than a function of difficulty or loot quality.

      So I don’t see the issue, unless you’re just unwilling to let go of the idea that 25m is “higher in progression” than 10m.

  4. This post may have made me fall in love. Which is a little disconcerting because a) I’m a straight girl, last I checked and b) I’ve sworn off Priests.

    Seriously though, I am getting frustrated by people only being able to see the negative in this situation. AND it annoys me no end that people enjoy tossing around the ‘e’ word and the ‘c’ word and goodness knows how many other words to make themselves feel more important and entitled. It doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion, people!

    As someone who has simultaneously been called an ‘elitist bitch’ and ‘casual lazy ass cow’… I like to think these changes will be good. And no more bloody doing 10 AND 25 man! Thank goodness! (yes, I am a selfish little Warlock at heart).

    <3 Buddy Jesus. /applaud the image choices in this post.

  5. @Domni

    These changes might not be bad for you – these changes could mean less time investments needed. It could have an impact on PuGs, and personally, I think it really takes that “epic” feeling out of a raid when you can just grab anyone from trade and collect loot the first week a raid is out. Small guilds with less time but good play ability could benefit the most of all!

    @Auroro That was my initial reaction – impossible to bring 10 & 25s in the same difficulty line, and that’s the part that has me worried. However, blizz has surprised us more than once. It most likely won’t be perfect out the gate, but here’s to hoping. If it fails miserably I see alot of us hanging up our raiding robes.


    I totally agree with you, and I love your post on this – goes into much larger detail about what’s lacking now. If you listen to someof the podcasts I’ve been on, I share your same feelings. Currently there is NO feeling of progression or character development, and I’m HOPING that if this works out, we’ll get that back.

  6. This is a great post. Of course there will be guild upheavels and a hell of a lot of spilt milk – all sorts of challenges can bring a guild low, from dealing with summer slumps to the change from 40man to 25man, to a diva tank, and the introduction of badges for gear.

    Raiding will continue, the hardcore elite (and I mean top 500 guilds) will find their challenges in the game, or they will move on to another game – more time limited players will get to experience the content as ever.

    I feel like they’re making the players more important than the individual toons they play, and that can only be a good thing.

  7. I’m shocked at this article. Avalonna telling us to calm down and be reasonable? It must indeed be the end of the world. :-)

    I agree.. well written. I recall some hardmode fights actually being tougher in 10m than 25m. Was it Sarth 3D? Hm, can’t remember exactly.

    Anyways, the impact of this will mostly be on a social level I think. No matter what… it’s hard to make accurate estimates of how this will impact things. I just hope the ‘public’ will give it a shot but I know that’s asking for a lot.

    1. What address? My beer is in need of saving :(

  8. I’m satisfied with the changes. If Blizzard wanted to make everyone happy, they would send us surveys on a daily basis, and in the end, we would never have any surprise in the game development.

    I also believe that, if Blizzard announced these changes, it is because a) they are well on their way to implement them, b) they probably have already developped encounters and raids supporting that idea, and c) they know a lot more about the changes than what they told us in those small posts. Bottom line, I believe our job, as players, is to learn how to live with those changes and adapt our gameplay and useage of the game based on it.

    We all remember Palehoof’s wise comment at the level 80 Onyxia’s Lair launch, right? :

    “Since it began dying, it’s been killed by rooftop camping, the removal of rooftop camping, the lack of honor, the implementation of honor, the lack of dishonor, the implementation of dishonor, the removal of dishonor, the removal of wall walking, rank rewards, decaying rank, the removal of rank decay, the removal of PVP titles, Ahn’Qiraj, Scourge Invasion, Zul’Gurub, the cost of mounts, the lack of information about TBC, all information released about TBC, playable Blood Elves, playable Draenei, Horde Paladins, Alliance Shamans, flying mounts, the timing of the release of TBC, the cost of flight, Jewelcrafting, the LFG channel, holding people accountable to the Terms of Use, meeting stones, arenas, the number of arena teams one player can have, arena-based gear rewards, the lack of battlegrounds, the addition of battlegrounds, everything about battlegrounds, Illidan being killable, Daily quests, instance-based reputations, the Darkmoon Faire, /pizza, playable wisps, Tinfoil Hat, the Armory, Warden, the lack of information about Wrath, all information about Wrath, the inability to transfer from PVE to PVP servers, hero classes, siege engines, cold weather flying, Wintergrasp being a PVP zone, death knights, the inability to start a new character of any class at 55 or higher, the lack of a dance studio, character recustomization, the inability to change race or faction, the cost of mammoths and motorcycles, the fall damage negation of mammoths and motorcycles, the removal of fall damage negation from mammoths and motorcycles, the ability to transfer from PVE to PVP servers, dual specs, Achievements, holiday events, Mountain Dew Game Fuel, streaming Blizzcon ’09 on pay per view, and the revamping of Onyxia’s Lair, as well as weekly maintenance and patches 1.1 through the current one inclusive.”

    Yup… this was all ment to ruin the game. Wait. We’re still playing?

  9. Raider burnout is a big issue on my server, the trade channel looks like a craigs list for guilds now, scrambling to find people who don’t exist. Why? because they are forced to run ICC10 and 25, TotGC10 and 25 on a weekly basis, some having to move up to doing heroic ICC10 and 25 on a weekly basis, just to keep up with the Jones’.

    This change I think will absolutely help in that regard. Will there be some upheaval? Absolutely. Will well entrenched guilds survive, most yeah. Will pure raiding guilds splinter? Most I think will.

    Is it really that bad that 10 and 25 mans get the same loot for doing the same difficulty? (If blizzard can normalize it properly). 25s are already getting more, more loot, more badges, more money. This all in theory will lead them to progress faster, thus getting what the 25 groups want most….glory.

    This is not the end of raiding, this is not the end of 25 man raiding. I do think it will slow down raider burnout, and provide some guilds the much needed flexibility to continue progression during those downturn times, or even scale up during the times when they get an influx of new members.

    Overall I think it will be a good change, but I am also at the wait and see point, mostly because Blizzard needs to normalize the difficulty and that will be their toughest challenge imho.

  10. @Avatar
    Players burn out. It’s a fact. Blizzard aren’t interested in stopping that, because they probably realize they can’t.
    Giving players only enough content to raid two nights a week will NOT stop players burning out. And anyone who thinks so is completely missing the point. I know this very well, as I am one of the players I am about to inform you of.
    There are many players who really enjoy raiding. They pretty much play to raid, and this is for many reasons which I wont go into right now as it is discussed in great detail elsewhere. The point is, if I can clear all the available content in 2 nights, I will get bored much much quicker. I currently raid 5ish nights a week, and that’s because I want to, I enjoy it, not because there is ‘too much content’ to get through. You will actually find that a large portion of players will burn out much quicker with this restriction on available raid content.
    Right now my guild is working on LK25 HM so we clear up to him on one night and have upto a couple of nights working on him. I mean we only get 40 attempts so it’s not really going to last us all week.
    To take up the rest of the week we are doing ICC10 hard modes for the few upgrades left and achievements people want to get (drakes etc.). If that option was not there, we would have very little to do and I know that players will get impatient waiting for the next raid reset.

    I understand what Blizzard is trying to do. They want to cater for everyone, that was their goal in the start. I think that’s an excellent design view. However, I believe that they have truly forgotten what that means. While they have seriously opened up the game to a great number of people and made all areas of the content accessible, there are no boundaries. And this affects the players who wish to focus on one area. I know the PvPers out there HATE the fact that people stroll into BGs with full PvE gear and no clue what to do, just so they can farm their daily honour for gems or gold for their newly aquired PvE gear.
    This is also true for PvE players seeing PvP geared players coming into places like VoA and taking PvE loot.
    So I truly believe that Blizzard is, wrongly, assuming that all players in WoW want to PvP, Arena, BGs, PvE raids, Dungeons, 5mans, 10 mans, 25 mans, heroics whatever. But this is simply not true at all. You have many HUGE communities of people who want to focus on one of those things, or maybe 2 or so.
    Now all of the content is slowly being blurred into one, that focus is hard to get. My point is that Blizzard is now neglecting those people. And I strongly thing it will be the last mistake they make. It’s the final nail in the coffin for many guilds/communities out there.

  11. Excuse the double post and the fact that they are epicly long. But this is something I feel quite strongly about and can’t express in short.

    I wanted to reply to say that I have been follow you and Derevka a while on twitter and stuff and I try and always listen to your podcasts when you do them. You guys are brilliant and I thoroughly enjoy your blogs/shows/tweets.
    And while I completely agree that Blizzard has taken away most of the sense of character development and feel of progression. I see this latest announcement as, well as I said in the last post I made, ‘the final nail in the coffin’. I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I don’t see how this can be a step in the right direction. But perhaps I am jumping the gun and Blizzard are going to dazzle us with some incredible new system that will make this announcement sparkle with awesome. We can only hope :D

  12. I can NOT believe that Blizzard is doing something as stupid as this. The entire game paradigm is built around the 40 man raid, cutting raids down to 25 people is going to KILL World of Warcraft. No guild will be able to survive this, there will be too many factions, fracturing and cliques as people are forced to pick and choose now who gets to raid on what team. This is unbelievable, and I for one will be quitting come Burning Crusade. This game just isn’t worth it anymore. I predict the upcoming LotR MMO will destroy WoW if this change goes live, this is just stupid.

    Oh wait, wrong expansion. Still the same whining though.

  13. I’m the most excited about scrubs that refuse to read wowwiki or wowhead so they can learn to play their class properly. Now they can still be carried thru but that may only be able to go so far in the new content…like the hunter in my LFG last night having 84% dmg be autoshot. Also, remember the gear requirements are supposed to change with each new tier of content in Cata. Add that in with the buffs/abilities that the guild leveling will allow and I think it will make for interesting playability. I think the “progression” title might actually be put back in since different stat requirements will be required for the next raid level. I’m excited and curious at the same time to see when the next tidbit of information will be released.

  14. See it’s posts like thus why I keep Ava around. Just when you think she’s batshit crazy, she comes up with an insightful post like this.


    You know I keeeed! But yep- as much as I am tentative with being “ok” with his change. We’ll see how it all pans out. Especially since I do like the other 24 crazy idiots I raid with. :-)

  15. @Saresa

    I’m straight too, but I can’t make any promises after a few bottles of wine *pats chair*


    I’m may be crazy, but I’m fun – you frigid bitch.




    I see your points. We raid for challenge, because we enjoy it. If everything is a cake walk, the burnout is not from over exertion, but boredom. We’re in the same boat as you: one night hard mode clears to H LK, work on him the rest of the week (We’re struggling attendance wise now due to some bad timing in schedules – the curse of a small guild, I suppose). It’s boring. And taking an alt and doing it all over again is not my idea of fun after awhile, especially with the lack of character development and a gearing free for all that game has become. There’s no satisfaction in being handed loot.

    But I’m not willing to say progression guilds like yours or mine will die of boredom. We have no idea how regular raids will work, and absolutely NO CLUE how heroic will be. I’m promoting the “wait and see” approach. As I said, every expansion the sky is falling, and it never does. Lets wait until we know more. :D And hey, if it shits the bed, maybe KOTOR will be in beta!

    I will disagree that loot is a sole motivating factor for most progression raiders. Maybe I’m out of the loop, but to us -& many I talk to- seem to think loot stopped being a factor along time ago. We all look the same, There’s no visual distinction – I have a staff that looks exactly like our hunter’s staff – and the stat difference between 10/25/H is almost minimal, and certainly not a factor in the next tier of raiding – not with heroics being locked from the start. The gear is almost an added bonus at this point.

    What’s that saying? It’s not the destination, but the journey? The motivating factor to me, my guild and others, especially those more progressed, seem to be to do it before anyone else, and the high you get when you kill something without some silly buff or over gearing the content to the point of absurdity, and to do it with people you enjoy playing with.

    Now, how do you capture that epic feeling in a ten man that you get with a 25 man? I have no flippin’ idea. How do you tune them so both offer the same challenge to the point of justifying the same gear? I don’t know, and I hope to hell Blizzard understand this, and knows how to implement this.

    If they CAN do this, I’m all for it. I’m hoping it brings back some challenges to raiding, and that it forces people to understand their classes and makes them understand how fun it is to apply that knowledge to raiding – and how boring facerolling your way to purples in a PuG really is. I’m hoping this will bring back true character progression and not the Hit 80, run 5 mans, run ICC, roll another alt treadmill we have now.

    Wow that was long. Uh…SAN DIMAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL ROCKS! *air guitar*


      Kono gains Vanish
      Vanish fails
      Vanish fades from Kono
      Kono gives Ava the finger

  16. 4) Shorter raids: I believe Blizzard was talking about raids similar to SSC and TK when they mentioned this one. And I for one would enjoy such a change; two/various raid settings are better than one. Don’t get me wrong, Ulduar was awesome, ICC as well to a lesser extent but one theme continuing for 12 or so bosses kinda bores me.
    On the other hand, if they managed to pull something similar to Karazhan again, even if it was the only instance of a specific tier, I’d be a very happy little camper indeed.
    Also, love the 10/25 man changes.

  17. @ Ava
    I wish I could share your optimism! I guess I will have to just put on a smile and wait to see what happens.

    I have to just clarify that I don’t think loot is the sole motivation. I just feel that it is a corner stone of the motivation. I don’t think raiding would work well without it, but there are other big factors.
    It’s easy to miss the point about loot with the current content available, and that’s due to the lost meaning of ‘tiered content’. I mean honestly, whoever’s idea it was to completely nullify the previous tier of raid content each time they release a new one, they need to be shot.
    If the only way you could get an 80 character geared for ICC, was to run ToC, and in turn the only way to get entry level gear for ToC, would be to run Ulduar…and so on. Then loot would be a bigger factor, and we’d all feel much happier when that trinket finally drops or the next tier of raiding is reached.
    I think perhaps if Blizzard bought this system back, as I believe this was the case before WotLK, then raiding would have a lot of the progression and development feeling that is associated with it.
    Instead of, “Hey guys, we’ve released a new tier of raiding for you all! This here is Timmy, he’s only just hit level 80 and has never raided before, could you all just take his hand and bring him along with you and give him some purples! That’d be awesome, thanks.”
    You’ve all seen it. There is nothing more depressing than seeing that DK in 251/264 gear who has 0/0/71 talents. Or the hunter gemming for spell power. The list goes on…but the point is that these players will never learn anything, because we are almost forced to take them along. There is a reason for tiered raiding, and they should bring it back.

    1. Oh I totally agree. The feeling was exemplified with the addition of the 15% buff last night. Raiding should be the highlight of the game and people should have to be rewarded for playing well. I think with the next buff you can forgo tanks! Here’s to hoping they bring back progression and risk vs reward, thus justifying equal gear!

      I know people are down because it seems like an impossible goal. Maybe it is. But until we know more:

      “Let’s put a smile on that face!”
      – The Joker.

  18. “& Billy Baddie will have to learn to play and stop asking ‘WUTS UR GS?’”

    …I approve.

    Plus, i looooovvvee that animated gif, so cute!

    Anyhoo, people in general just love being able to distill other people on the other side of an argument down to a label. Hence, the elitist vs casual debate.

    You’re right though, it just doesn’t foster any meaningful debate. It just fosters hate when discourse should be had if positive feedback needs to be given to Blizzard about their game that we all play and love.

    I hate GS, I know my GS but only because I asked other people for it so I can tell other people what it is when they ask for the few time I pug stuff. It’s a meaningless number. My GS has a cap because I use an ilvl 200 item that is basically BIS for my class.

    GS has come about because people are lazy and people want quick and people want to think they are on the top of the mole mound, not the bottom. So even though they aren’t are the very, very top – they try to be up there and go maybe a little power mad, hence the douchebags you described.

    Well, I just posted a comment to say I really loved your post from your “elitist” point of view. New subscriber!

  19. I’m a little worried… I run 10 mans with my guild but I recently decided to head up raid team 2 as I thought it would be better for progression than just recruiting people for 25 mans only to make them PUG 10 mans until we hit the requisite amount of people for our 25 man semiPUGs. While we down more bosses in 10 man than in 25 man, I often find myself enjoying 25 mans more, since I don’t have to worry about who turns up/people’s gear/telling people tactics. I figure come Cataclysm it’ll be impossible to PUG people since they’ll want to run guild runs if they’ve only got one lockout and thus it’ll become even more difficult to recruit people for a 25 man raiding guild.

  20. I really appreciate your attitude on this issue Ava. We don’t know specifically what is going to happen, so we all need to slow our roll.

    If you don’t raid for the shiny loots, but to play with people you enjoy playing with. I don’t know how this is going to affect you. They aren’t removing 25s. They will still be there with greater rewards for the effort involved with keeping 25 different people together for the time it takes to clear a tier of content.

    If what is of concern is that you have 15 people that you like to raid with and you tolerate 10 others so that you can raid with all of the people that you like, then I can see where the issue may be. In that you may not perceive the reward for dealing with those 10 you currently tolerate to be worth it. In that case, it remains to be seen how it will all play out.

  21. Let’s assume they’re able to make the difficulty the same. Or even that 10′s are slightly harder as was the case in Sarth3d.

    If I have 24 other people who share the same degree of skill and dedication/attendance as myself, I’ll run the 25s for the extra drops – and thus the faster path to being able to down hardmodes.

    If I find I have 15-18 people at that level, and I’m dragging some warm bodies with me who either should not be there, or should be there but are noticably producing less than others, I’ll see more kills and get more drops from the 10s.

    The ‘enjoyment’ factor will probably dictated by the same model – as it will apply to both gear, kills, seeing content, every reason you’d raid.

    So many people have said they feel like they’ve got ’15 great people and 10 warm bodies.’ For these types, they might not do too many 25s anymore. For those that have not had that experience, I would expect them to do the 25s and take the extra loot/rewards.

  22. What I’m not happy about is that this hurts raiding, by making people NOT play their mains sometimes. Raiding Guilds like to have a little leeway, and often have a few people ‘on the bench’ to swap in when disconnects happen, people are sick, etc.

    These people can run 10′s, and continue to upgrade their ‘benched’ main on the side.

    Now they can’t.

    Whether or not you like the changes, we can all agree that more constraints on when people can raid with their characters isn’t a good thing.

  23. @Malt

    This is exactly what I’m thinking. Blizzard seem to have missed the point that some people actually enjoy playing their game.
    Sarcasm aside, they do seem to misunderstand that some players like raiding several nights a week; and doing 10 and 25 man raids.

  24. Blizz always makes it work out nice in the end :) They really turn those millions every month into something spectacular. I’ve got faith, it will be fun.

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